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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1585
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Posted - 2013.11.24 01:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I notice one thing immediately.
You simply state that it's a problem and move on, without really establishing that there really is a problem at all.
I do not view it as a failure of the UI. The tools and information exist already to establish to a fair degree of certainty whether something is a scam or not. It's not that the tools are inadequate, it's that people simply are not using them correctly.
And that's not something that has to be fixed. At all.
Changing Margin Trading runs 2 distinct risks. Firstly, damaging legitimate uses for the skill. I know several people (not myself, I am a poor marketeer) who rely on this skill as it currently exists for their industry and manufacturing, both buy and sell orders.
Secondly, it removes the assumption of necessary due diligence on the part of the players. Because the tools do exist to determine legitimacy of an order, it is the responsibility of the individual player to not spend their money foolishly.
Just because a subset of whiny, irresponsible, lazy or stupid players want to cede more of their own responsibilities to the computer doesn't mean it should be done. In fact it means the opposite.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1596
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 03:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:Actually CCP Rise referred to them as "fake" orders as well in the OP, does it make you feel like a special snowflake to disagree with everyone else?
CCP Rise, no offense intended, should stick to ship balancing.
And Tippia is not disagreeing with everyone else. I completely agree with the stance as well, as do numerous others throughout the thread
What Tippia is doing is stating that the problem isn't what people think it is.
The problem is player knowledge, not the skill itself. The tools exist to see through every margin trading scam, every time. The real problem is that people are too stupid to use them. If you ever fell for a margin scam, it was 100% your own fault.
So, more information needs to be made available. Perhaps the market history needs to be shown elsewhere than in a different tab. (Because clicking twice is way too much work)
Perhaps disclaimers that prices are not guaranteed. Because for some reason people think just because it's on the market that it's a guarantee of anything.
The attititude is wrong, the expectations of how the market works are wrong.
Like with most things in this game, information about how things work they way they do, and why, is just not readily available unless you specifically go looking for it. Those who don't are sheep.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1596
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 03:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:trying to browse the net with Virgin Media internet is like trying to re-create the Vitruvan Man with an angle grinder upside down without eyewear
I have Virgin. You forgot to add "while being attacked by rabid bats".
Quote:You should stick to the view that your opinion is, by and large, invalid and useless. Much like how I don't ask my Iceberg Lettuce what I should wear to lectures in the morning.
Why do you eat Iceberg lettuce for breakfast? Or did I infer that incorrectly?
Anyway, you are correct. Most of us, aside from those with white or blue badges, are just faces behind a screen.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1596
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Anyway, you are correct. Most of us, aside from those with white or blue badges, are just faces behind a screen. Stop discriminating against the faceless. We are Meat Popsicles behind a screen.
Meat Popsicles with snazzy monocles.
Or, in my case, sunglasses, the double monocle.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1597
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 05:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users.
Provably false.
Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.
The entire rest of your premise is invalid, as it relies on that false assumption.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1598
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 07:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:- People should remember that subtle indirect signs of something just work with experience, and most scams are made targeting inexperient users. Provably false. Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam. The entire rest of your premise is invalid, as it relies on that false assumption. No. It is entirely plausible for an inexperienced player to have a few hundred million ISK. The margin trading scam does target people ignorant of market mechanics. The fact they are ignorant is not always their own fault, as the system is more opaque than it appears and information or explanation is not readily available. This can be corrected.
Never seen one below a billion, personally.
And yes, it can be corrected. With education. Anything else really runs the risk of ruining (other) legitimate uses for the skill.
I would however say that information is readily available. The market history tab is literally one click away. That alone serves to clear up the matter in 90% of every margin scam I have ever seen or heard of.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1608
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 10:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:If you had asserted that most of the margin trade scams are out of reach of most new players then I would of course agree.
See the below, emphasis mine.
Quote:
Inexperienced players don't have the kind of money to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
1699
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 05:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:EA really, really wants you guys to eliminate scamming before they'll buy in, don't they, CCP?
Yeah, I think the EA guy is where all this casualization **** started too.
"We could market the game better if it weren't so harsh to all the poor casual players". When the EVE attitude should be "F*** those people!"
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
2728
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Posted - 2014.02.25 06:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
How has this not been locked yet?
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
2767
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Posted - 2014.02.25 10:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:I am sure that more than a few new players were discouraged from continuing to play after losing all their ISK to one of these scams. But I don't think one player has ever been made destitute from legitimate market orders.
Both of those are lies. And I have as much proof of my statement, as you do of yours.
Quote:So if we are to establish a rule, or practice, that the good of EVE-Online is retaining players and not discouraging players by an obscure hidden market manipulation, then these fail orders should not be posted in the UI.
It's not "obscure". You do know that the Price History tab is a thing, right?
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
2781
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Posted - 2014.02.25 12:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:No they are not, and deflection is a poor defence.
I would argue that any player with sufficient isk to fall for the typical Margin Trading scam is highly unlikely to be a genuine newbie.
You don't get to use new players as the brunt of your argument. New or old, falling for a Margin scam is quite simply stupidity. Stupidity knows no character age.
Quote:What's that got to do with the price of tea in China.
Because no matter how loud you bleat about a "false UI" (nevermind that a buy order being posted is guarantee of nothing by definition), it is not a false UI.
The means are there to see through Margin Trading scams. Often, the Price History tab is the first, and last, stop that you need to make.
Someone's failure to use the resources they already have is not indicative of a need for change.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
2781
|
Posted - 2014.02.25 12:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:
So again you deflect, this change does not hurt marketers, It only hurts scams that create a false UI. So thousands of marketers are fine and a few scammers have to find a new toy to break.
... do you have the slightest clue how this skill works?
I mean, it is genuinely the height of ignorance to say what you just said.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space
The ROC
8665
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Posted - 2014.08.10 05:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have to say, I think being able to saddle other players with "debt" rather than that being an exclusively GM power is fraught with peril.
It would almost invariably lead to far, far more widespread griefing than a simple trade scam ever could. I can think of at least 3 ways to horribly abuse a debt mechanic about seventy seconds after I read that idea. And I am far from the smartest scammer out there.
I genuinely cannot think of a worse idea.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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